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Secrets of a Man's Soul

• Lyanette Talley • Episode 79

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What happens when you combine personal experiences, insightful discussions, and the intricate dynamics of gender roles and relationships? You get a profound exploration of the challenges that men face in expressing their inherent qualities, and the beauty and worth that women need to realize. Join me, Lyanette Talley, and my guest, Philip Talley, as we draw insights from John Eldridge's enlightening book, "Wild at Heart: Discovering the Secret of a Man's Soul."

As we navigate through this stimulating conversation, we tackle the complexities of marriage, the danger of complacency, and the importance of effort in nurturing relationships. Philip's candid account of his personal experiences and the role his father played in shaping his outlook gives our discussion a raw and relatable edge. We also delve into the societal norms that govern gender roles, the intriguing concept of men being a 'dangerous thing', the importance of open communication, and the need for consistency in maintaining a balanced relationship.

This episode will not only provide you with a fresh perspective on gender roles and relationships, but also inspire you to grow and learn alongside your partner, while understanding and validating each other's needs. 

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Everyday growth, everyday healing with everyday warriors!

Music by Deli Rowe: "Space to Move"
Logo by Kaylin Talley


Speaker 1:

Hi, I am your host, Lyanette Talley, and you are listening to Virago 24-7. Virago is Latin for female warrior and 24-7 is for all day, every day. Virago 24-7 is a weekly podcast that brings diverse women together to talk about life and our experiences in this world. We share our views on self-love, mental health, marriage, children, friendships and really anything that needs to be talked about. Here you will find everyday growth, everyday healing with everyday warriors. Hey, everybody hope everyone's doing well. I'm here today with Philippe Talley, aka Philip Talley, or Philip Talley aka Philippe Talley, I don't know which one would you prefer? I like Philip. Okay, I'm still going to call you Philippe. I think I call you Philippe, maybe two, three, four, five, six times a day.

Speaker 2:

Probably.

Speaker 1:

So, anyways, hello everyone. We are gathered here today, me and Philip. Philip is a part of a men's group at church, and he's been a part of it for I don't know how long, but a long time, maybe 10 years.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think 10 years.

Speaker 1:

And so they read books and they discuss them and all the things and they do. What men normally don't do is share feelings, emotions, thoughts, ideas.

Speaker 2:

Definitely.

Speaker 1:

So it's good. He read this book a few years ago called Wild at Heart Discovering the Secret of a Man's Soul by John Eldridge. So I know this is a woman's podcast Virago, female Warrior. However, men have a part in our lives as women. Whether we're married, whether we have a boyfriend, whether we have a son, whether we have a father, whether we have a grandfather, an uncle, a good guy, friend, men are in our lives and so it might sound like I'm bringing male topics to this podcast. However, I feel like it all pertains to us as women and things that we can learn from. So Philip read this book with this men's group a few years ago. They're rereading it because they have new people in the group and they thought that this would be something that they could talk about again and reread and those that have read it can kind of impart their knowledge about past discussions on the book.

Speaker 1:

So I'm going to read the cover, or the back cover, of what the book, like the theme, is about and then I'm going to let Philip take it over.

Speaker 1:

But on the back it says every man was once a boy and every little boy has dreams, big dreams, dreams of being the hero, of beating the bad guys, of doing daring feats and rescuing the damsel in distress. Every little girl has dreams too of being rescued by her prince and swept up into a great adventure, knowing that she is the beauty. What happens to those dreams when we grow up? Walk into most churches, have a look around and ask yourself what is a Christian man Without listening to what is said? Look at what you find there. Most Christian men are dot dot dot, bored In Wild at Heart. John Eldridge invites men to discover their masculine heart, defined in an image of a passionate God, and he invites women to discover the secret of a man's soul and to delight in the strength and wildness men were created to offer. So we're not going to discuss the whole book, we are discussing chapter five. Chapter five is titled the Battle for a Man's Heart.

Speaker 2:

So, philippe, so just like Leonette said, this book I think we were at about ten years ago in our men's group and, unlike, I think, most men's groups, we actually dig deep and we actually share, and I think that's what makes us so close, because it's not a group of guys that we would pick to hang out with if it was on our own, but our fearless leader, brian, who has since passed away, brought us all together so we felt like as an under him we would continue to men's group and we chose to reread this book because it really resonated with a lot of us and we have so many new members, so we thought it would be a good book to reread and for others to read for the first time. And it challenges a lot of things when it comes to a man and a man's heart, and I think one of the biggest things that it says is you know, god gave us eyes so that we might see. He gave us ears that we might hear. He gave us wheels that we might choose and he gave us hearts that we might live. The way we handle the heart is everything, and a man must know he is powerful, he must know he has what it takes, and a woman must know she is beautiful and she must know she is worth fighting for. But one of the things that he does talk about leading up to this chapter is the wound that a man gets, and this wound is something that at times becomes pretty deep and a lot of times it's rarely discussed. And it's a wound that a man carries most men carry, and the wound is nearly always given by his father, and that's usually the deepest wound and that's the one that hurts the most, lasts the longest, and you know. A lot of that comes back to the fact that you know, as a boy, you want to know that you have what it takes, you want to know that you're powerful.

Speaker 2:

And he starts off this one story to begin the chapter talking about his son who's going to first grade and he's 11th grade. He's having a great time. Every night at dinner he's telling them about all his adventures of the day, how much fun he's having about his number two pencils and his Crayolas, and he heard about, you know, the new teacher and how they play at recess and you know all these things, and he would do that every single day. But one day he came home and he didn't want to talk. Finally, the story came out of bully. I had pushed him down in the playground in front of all his friends and his first grader was crying when he was telling the story back to his father and his mother. And so the father at that moment said to him he told his son, look at me. I want you to listen very close to what I'm about to say. This is what he was saying to his son. The next time that bully pushes you down, here's what I want you to do. I want you to get up. I want you to hit him as hard as you possibly can.

Speaker 2:

The little boy was shocked, but he was delighted, he was happy, and I'm sure some people, some mothers, was like why did you give him that advice and why was he so delighted by it and why are some of you delighted by it? Well, a boy is wild at heart and the thing about that is, I was given that same advice from my father, so I get it. It makes sense to me as a boy you don't let anyone bully you, you don't let anyone hit you and, as my father told me, if someone hits you you have to hit them back, and that's just the rules, and I'm sure that probably didn't happen with women or girls when they were raised, but with boys. You have to give them that freedom. You have to let them know you know you're not telling them to go around and be a bully or pick fights, but you can't let someone hit you and then you just walk away and you go tell the teacher. That just doesn't work. It doesn't work. And I mean I know that's probably not PC, but it's true.

Speaker 2:

And this book goes on to say that you cannot teach a boy to use the strength by stripping them of it. And I think that's 100 percent. Because if we do do that, we emasculate them and from that point on he'll end up being passive and fearful. He'll grow up never knowing how to stand his ground, never knowing if he's a man indeed, and he may look moral, like it says in the book, he may look like turning the other cheek, but you can only turn a cheek you don't. You cannot turn a cheek you don't have. And you know, we're taught that. We taught that in churches, we're talking that in the Bible turn the other cheek. And it's not that you can't do that in certain situations, but I just feel like you can't do that throughout life, especially when you're a boy and you're growing and you're kind of testing your own strength and testing your own freedoms and extension of who you are. So when we're transitioning from boys to men, we need to know what those limits are.

Speaker 2:

And I'm not talking about taking things to an extreme, and when this book was written, I think this was well before Columbine, when that happened in Colorado, and so this was in a new addition to the book in which he added some things and some chapters to talk about some modern day things that were happening. And he brought that example up and it came to how the boys were labeled in that incident and it not just, it just basically became a blanket statement about boys in general and that this is the boys in little town, or the tip of the iceberg, it says in the book, and the iceberg is all boys and the idea widely held in our culture is that aggressive nature of boys is inherently bad and we have to make them into something more like girls. And it goes on to say that Because of that and it's a noble goal, you know, when you're in school To getting boys to sit down, to sit still, to be quiet to pay attention, but for an entire day. It's just not something that's I don't think it's realistic because that's not how boys wired. And you know I remember when we were growing up in school, you know we used to have a recess and PE, so we had breaks, and nowadays kids don't hardly get that. I mean, they get a little bit of that, but Avoid needs that more than anything.

Speaker 2:

And I agree with this, as in a book that you know, we're changing the way we do male education Instead of changing that way actually let me correct myself rather than changing the way we do male education, we try to change males and in that way we're we're Taking away that natural instinct of a boy and we're trying to push it down and have a model, something that he's not and that really, over time, it takes away his true self. So that's just one of the things that that came up to me in the first part of this chapter, which it really spoke to me, especially the first part when he was telling his son because I had the same conversation with Khalil you know someone hits you, you got hit him back and you know my whole thing in school was was that my brother's taught me that, my father taught me that. But it's not more of just. You got to be violent, you got to fight someone.

Speaker 1:

You got to look for a fight Some more, so that you know you defend yourself, exactly, exactly so I know you guys haven't touched on this chapter yet in the book, but obviously you've read one, two and three and four has there and and we're gonna get to some other things that apply to us women. So I'm just letting Philip kind of laid the groundwork for what the book is about and what it's talking about, with, you know, boys and men having this inherent characteristics within them that I feel like nowadays are, are being stifled, and so is there any pushback on anything that you guys have read, like in your guys's discussion? You don't have to like divulge, like top secrets or anything like that, but are you guys all in agreement of what the book is saying so far or are you debating, like what is some of the things that you guys have talked about without you know calling anybody out?

Speaker 2:

you know, I think when I felt the same way when I first read the book, a while at heart, because it's not about Going out and getting in nature and hunting and jumping from skydiving and jumping off a cliff, and you know he does talk about having an adventure and that you know at heart will we want an adventure as men. But it's more so because he's even describes himself. He's not, that's not him, he's not that type of person himself. So you know he's not the type of person that's going to be. You know, hunting and going out and drinking beers and Doing so it's not like the stereotypical like what you imagine To be so.

Speaker 1:

There's there's qualities that men have. You guys are all very different. You have different likes and dislikes but, there's something like within you all that Needs to come out yes, without someone telling you that that's not the right thing to be or that's the wrong way to be.

Speaker 2:

Yes, okay and you know, there's just fundamental things as boys, you know, boys are a little bit more more rambunctious, aggressive, a lot more energetic.

Speaker 1:

And I mean there's a reason for that yeah and even you know Khalil is, is a very more People would consider him more like calm natured or passive or you know whatever, like he's not jumping off Roof and stuff like that. However, there's times where he's like he needs to let that aggression out. He's even told me I just want to punch something, just want to hit something. I'm like, dude, go outside and just start running or like, are you making run hills or not making? But you suggest, hey, run hills, put these weights on your legs, and so there's, there's ways.

Speaker 1:

Even the most passive kid needs to let out some kind of emotion or some kind of yes, yeah, even if they're not Outwardly, just in your face about it. Internally maybe they're internalizing, maybe because they feel like they can't or not allowed to express those emotions. But there's, I feel, ways to do it in a safe way. 100%. Go run around the house. I tell them I just go run around the house. I'm like maybe I'll buy you a little punching bag. You can just start punching the crap out of it, right? So okay.

Speaker 2:

So you know, it's just one of those things because he always talks about you know when it comes to you know because right now he goes back to how, now how they're always everyone's getting diagnosed with ADD and that would describe in Ritalin for every little situation. But he's saying in the book and I don't know how true it is but makes sense, the use of these drugs is so disproportionately, disproportionately among boys. It's more prescribed for boys than it is for girls and it almost seems like really the own disease they have is being male, because Sometimes it doesn't mean it. I mean, they're obviously a case that do have ADD and they do need some type of regulation when it comes to the chemical imbalance or things of that nature, that they need something prescribed. But I think we over Prescribes and we do that all the time with antibiotics, with other drugs or things, medicines, and he pointed that out.

Speaker 2:

When it comes to boys it just sometimes Just rambunctious and energetic and doesn't necessarily mean and they don't learn the same.

Speaker 2:

You know, and I'm not trying to put a blanket statement around everyone, but it's just a thing that we need to be careful about when it comes to when we're raising a boys, and I mean you and I talked about this earlier a boy needs Some type of man in his life.

Speaker 2:

So, if it's not, his father, grandfather, uncle, somebody that he needs to model and show and also show Limitations, because you can't give into every emotion that you have and show some kind of self-control and the boy needs to see that model around him. But and it has to be modeled with another male though. I truly, truly believe that and you know, I'd, luckily, growing up sometimes just very naive at a very strong role model in my life, which is my father, and I felt that he was a great example of a man and a father, and he wasn't the most athletic and he wasn't the one that Did all these crazy adventures and things of that nature, but he, to me he seemed to be the, he modeled what a man should be in every aspect of my life, and Not until I was, that's three years ago.

Speaker 2:

Mm-hmm that those of you who listen to the show I I had a surreal moment when I found out my father wasn't everything I thought he was and you know he was unfaithful to my mother. He had two other children and it was. It was. It was hard to deal with. It was kind of a shock and it seemed like everything that I thought my father was was was not as much as I thought it he was when it came to what pedestal I put him on. But I will say he at least modeled it.

Speaker 2:

He probably didn't do what he said and luckily I didn't know what he did, because if I had found that out earlier in my life, I doubt very seriously I'd be the man I am now. To be honest, because that would have rocked my whole world. I was very naive into thinking that he was at this level or this pedestal in life as a man, as a father, and I wanted to model myself behind him in a lot of ways. So I think I had a really strong foundation when it come to following my heart and feeling I was man enough and things of that nature. But I can see very easily how that could have changed under circumstances, because I didn't have that wound from my father, but that type of news, if I had gotten it earlier in my life, especially in a very young age, that would have been devastating. So even on that I want to thank Keith for not kind of just blowing us up as when he could have.

Speaker 1:

Who's Keith?

Speaker 2:

for those who haven't heard he's my brother, who we just met three years ago, and he's amazing, great person, great man, awesome father, husband. Yeah, every time I spent time with Keith I learned something and it's been awesome to get to know him as my brother. And he could have, because he's older than I am I was going to say a lot older, but he's older than I am and when he could have, when he was driving from St Louis to Little Rock, he could have very easily just stepped on our doorstep and knocked on the door and blown up this whole process that I was living.

Speaker 2:

And he chose not to, and I want to thank him for that, because I definitely would not be the person I am now if he had. And reading this book lets me see the impact that a father has, or a man has, on a young man's life and how you can shape him and grow him and nurture him, or you can give a wound to him in his heart that he will be forever chasing.

Speaker 1:

So okay, so you've laid down, basically the foundation of what the book is about, that men have, you know, have this thing inside them, this fire that needs to be nourished in a healthy way. Since we have a lot of women listeners, I want to start talking about how it applies to us, because I read the chapter and I there was like a few things that just like bam like stood out to me, because it talks about Christian men and how he basically these are not my words that they are weak and they stand down and that they aren't stepping up the way they should, and there's a few things that I wrote down that applies to women and marriage and the men, and so I want to talk more about that.

Speaker 2:

So one of the things when he talks about marriage and he talks about, you know, the emasculation of a man from boyhood or the wound his father gives him, which could be very emasculating depending on what the father says to the boy on a consistent basis or that one time they may devastate him. He said it all also happens in marriage. And you know women, he said. Women are often attracted to the wild side of a man.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, I wrote that down, this, this yeah.

Speaker 2:

But once having caught him, they settled down to the task of domesticating him. Ironically, if he gives in, he'll resent her for it, and then she in turn will wonder where the passion has gone. I mean, we hear about that all the time, and then it says most marriages wind up there.

Speaker 1:

I wrote that down because I was like, wow, that's what do you feel? How do you feel about that statement? And obviously you're a man, so you're going to be like rah, rah, rah.

Speaker 2:

Men power. Well, this is what I feel. I think that it happens. I mean, it doesn't happen all the time. It's not something happens 90% of the time.

Speaker 1:

I think. I think it's higher percentage than you would realize.

Speaker 2:

But it happens more than 50% of the time.

Speaker 1:

And I'm team woman.

Speaker 2:

But I feel like women do that. And I think that they also do that to their boys, and it's a natural, natural instinct for a mother to want to protect their children and baby the little boy.

Speaker 2:

And he's always going to be their little boy, but there comes a time that the father has to step in and show him a little bit of different side of caring and loving. It's going to be a little bit more firm. It's going to be let him have some a little bit more adventures than the mom would do, like we talked about earlier with my mother. If it was up to my mother, I would have never played sports, because you get hit, you get hurt, and so if I could have done anything, I would have just stayed and played the cello all the time.

Speaker 2:

And gone to the opera, gone to the opera and Alvin Haley dancers the ballet, which was, I think, for me it was a nice balance, but for my father he was okay with me playing sports. So I did play sports. But back to marriage. I think it happens and it's unfortunate, and sometimes guys don't know why or how it happened, because you know you're getting married, you're not trying to chase the woman anymore, you're not trying to woo her, you're not trying to date her.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, why not? Why do you guys stop doing that? That's what I want to know.

Speaker 2:

I think and I've been guilty of doing that at times I think you just get settled in a routine.

Speaker 1:

Well, what happens is like a woman. When that stops, is like okay. So no wonder you guys get emasculated or things don't work out in your favor Like they were in the beginning, because you stopped pursuing us. So then we're like, okay, well, what the heck? Okay, well then, I won't put you up in this high-emanded pedestal that you once were on.

Speaker 2:

So it's like whatever you don't want to take care of me, so I don't want to take care of you in that way. It's a vicious cycle and it doesn't correct itself. It just gets worse, and it's something that you know. Other things come out of it and other problems, and men start pursuing pornography, or the women are both, because now that's the adventure, that's the beauty that they're looking out for.

Speaker 1:

That's what validates them.

Speaker 2:

Or searching for yeah.

Speaker 1:

It said something in there about. You know, when men date younger women, it's like because they're not a challenge, because they don't have the wisdom that someone their age has. And so you know she's looking at you like, wow, look at this manly man. Okay, that sucks that. You guys do that. However, that's the mentality behind it. Let's go for the younger woman who can validate my ego and caress that. But what can we do in marriage? Why do we just Like? How can we make it so that you guys don't do that?

Speaker 2:

I think it has to go both ways, in the sense that you know you always have to be pursued, you always have to be debuted in love. So I think it's a matter of starting it like. I think everything starts with the man. He has to be the one to pursue, he has to be the one to ask you out on dates, bring you flowers for no apparent reason. He has to be the one to lead that charge and lead the family. And it's not a chauvinistic thing, but I think women like that when the man is being active and being intentional. You know, that's our word for the year being intentional with his wife and with their relationship, because it's something that always, always, always has to be nurtured.

Speaker 1:

So I think what's going on is that there's a lot of men that don't even subscribe to what the heck you're saying. They don't get it, they don't understand it. It's not on their radar to want to better themselves or even make the marriage stronger. They, you know, emotionally it's like, yeah, I want to make it better, but like in order to make it better, you have to put forth effort, and that takes some work, and some guys aren't willing to do that.

Speaker 1:

I feel like in today's age and society, women back in the day were fully dependent on a man, so we had to put up with your guys of the shit to break it down. Nowadays, women know how to make their own money. They literally can get it done by themselves, on their own. Do we want to have it that way? No, of course not. But we need a man to come in, not in a I'm going to control you way because there's men that are like manly men, very masculine, that will come and get the job done, but they're not nourishing that soft side of the woman. And then also women hold on to that independence because they don't feel like they can trust or be confident that the man can carry you in this life and so right now I feel like there's a whole conflict in our society where women want to be viewed as independent. But I don't know. I'm not speaking for all women, but I know that there's a side of us that wants to be nurtured and wants to be taken care of. But it has to be the right man. There has to be that right balance of knowing when to kind of come in and quote unquote beat a man, and then knowing when to like, let the woman be herself. And that is very rare to find in a man the man that is confident enough to allow you to be who you are, to step in when you need to step in, for the woman to be able to come to you and say, listen, this is what I've got and you're like I got you, let's do that. That is very rare and the people that don't have it not saying that they're not capable, each individual in that marriage or in relationship, I'm not saying that it's not that they don't have those tools. Maybe they just together don't bring the best out in each other. You know what I'm saying. So I never want to like dog someone because they might go to that next person and that next woman and that woman might bring that, that you know, those qualities out where you and it doesn't mean anything about the woman, it doesn't mean anything about the man, it just you guys weren't evenly yoked. And I think nowadays we just get married because that's something that we should do. That's some of us as a traditional, if we were raised in the church like you just find that first person it's like okay, they're, they're good enough for me and deep down, you guys aren't really meant to be together. So then you're, there's a, there's a conflict where you're emasculating the man because you don't respect them. You know what I'm saying? That's, that's what I'm, I'm seeing.

Speaker 1:

And then there was this, I don't know what came. There's a paragraph that I wrote down and I think it hit me because I feel that, with you, I feel and listen, when you see us, people are like oh, you too, and this, and that, yes, and we are amazing. I don't want to toot our own horn or pat ourselves on the back, but listen, we've had difficult conversations. We've had like deep, me crying and you yelling, where we've had to really express ourselves, and so I felt this, this paragraph I don't know what came before it. But it says this isn't to say women can't be heroic. So I think, as he was saying something about men being heroes and we need that so it's not saying just because a man needs to be a hero doesn't mean we can't be heroes either. It can be both. And I think sometimes it's like well, if I allow the man to do this, that takes away from me. No, it could be and or and and you know, and or it could all be together. So this says this isn't to say women can't be heroic I know many heroic women. It's simply to remind us that God made men the way they are because we desperately need them to be the way they are.

Speaker 1:

Yes, a man is a dangerous thing. So is a scalpel. It can wound or it can't save your life. You don't make it safe by making it dull. You put it in the hands of someone who knows what he's doing. And that's how I feel with you. I feel like you're holding this, this tool that could hurt or that could save, and I think a lot of women want to dole it because they don't want to be hurt, because they have been hurt, because men haven't shown them that they can come in and take care of you, but with the right person.

Speaker 1:

You allow like I allow you to be who you are and lead when you need to lead. You know what I'm saying. When I feel and I don't have to, you know, bash every idea or poo poo everything that, because I need my way. There's this balance of you feel safe with me and I feel safe with you, and that is very much lacking. I know there's a lot of people out there that they're making it. They're doing it. Hashtag couples goals. You would know anything about that, phillip, but that's all over the intranets. Hashtag couples goals.

Speaker 1:

I know that exists you don't, but for the majority of relationships that is very rare. And if a man knows what they're doing with that scalpel man like I think, men want that from us, Right? So it's not worth it to show us.

Speaker 2:

Let the prove it that you're a leader, that you're worthy of that, and that's where it's hard.

Speaker 1:

Yes, you're saying all these things, but not every man is cut from the same cloth, so how do we get there?

Speaker 2:

That's a whole other show.

Speaker 1:

Oh, okay, I thought you had answers, man, I thought you had it like you need to do this, you need to do this, you need to do this, yeah.

Speaker 2:

It's a lot of communication, it's a lot of consistency. It's been very, very intentional and sometimes you need a reminder, you know, for the woman to say, hey, remember you used to do this and then do that. And you know, sometimes you just need to kick in your butt to kind of reset and get back on course with certain things. But I really, I truly believe that the devil would love to come between a married couple and just to marry couple, evenly, yoke on the same page, praying together, spiritually connected. It's very dangerous to the devil and the warfare and the war that he brings up in this book and the battle is a spiritual warfare and it's a warfare that if we keep taking away the heart of the man, it's gonna be easily battle won by the devil. And the thing about it is you know he's talking about in this book, which I think is awesome.

Speaker 2:

You know a lot of people think when they were coming to Christian they would somehow end all their troubles or at least reduce them.

Speaker 2:

No one ever told them they're being moved to the front lines and that's the front lines of the spiritual warfare that happens and no one ever told them that. And then they're generally shocked at the fact that they're getting shot at, that the spiritual warfare is happening to them, happening to their marriages, because in a perfect world the man's a dangerous, is a dangerous and is a threat, is a danger and is a threat. And I think reducing that from a boyhood to a man really takes away from the whole premise of what a man can truly be and how powerful he can be, which also means leading his family, you know, taking care of his wife, cherishing his wife. It's not a matter of you know his way or the highway. I mean sometimes it's being vulnerable, being humble, being transparent is a very powerful thing Versus trying to be macho or overly aggressive or overly domineering. You know that's not the macho and the manly part I'm talking about. It involves everything.

Speaker 1:

So, like, do you see? I mean, obviously, like I said, there's men that have that balance, but obviously it all comes from some kind of wound within these men, the men that are overly aggressive, overly controlling, obviously there's something way deeper in their spirit that is making them, that's making them overly aggressive and angry and they're just taking out on everybody around them. But the men that you know may have had fathers, because not every man that has that wound has an absent T father.

Speaker 2:

you know what.

Speaker 1:

I'm saying Not every man, like there's a lot of men that grew up with their fathers that still have that. What makes these men? What is happening that these men are being emasculated or taking like kind of stripped, stripped down, like who's doing that? The dads, because you said everyone comes from their dads.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, that's the dad.

Speaker 1:

So what is it that they're doing?

Speaker 2:

And it doesn't have to be, you don't have to be absent, t, but a lot of times it could be the, and a lot of times it comes down to words that you say or words you don't say, because just those moments you know from 11 to 15,. They say in this book, which I truly believe is a crucial time in a young boy's life, that you can really build your son up or really tear him down. And it may just be a word or a few words or maybe nothing, when they're asking nonverbally do I have what it takes? Do you love me? And sometimes you can do that by your actions.

Speaker 2:

When he says this in a book, you mean, we're so caught up in working that our focus is on providing it's not the time that we spend. It has nothing to do with the amount of time, because we can't devote that same amount of time and when we're working so hard, but it's the quality of time and what you do at that time. Because I remember reading in one of our books that we read a few years ago and it said you know, you're not going to have this amount of time with your son, this finite amount of time with your son, and if you really break it down to him? You don't have, and I looked at it at the time. I said I don't have five years with Kalil before he graduates. I need to teach him everything I know in that time period.

Speaker 1:

But people say that, but does it have to be crunched up in five years? Like they're not, like we're all like, we're always evolving, we're always growing. I understand the mindset behind that, but I feel like, as humans, that creates a lot of anxiety, especially in mothers where it's like I'll have two more years. Okay, yes, under our roof. Technically, however, there still are babies and there's still our children and you're still going to always impart wisdom in them.

Speaker 1:

Like even when they're 50 years old, they're always going to look to us for some kind of guidance.

Speaker 2:

But I believe there's critical times in someone's development and, yes, you're always telling them something in their 20s and their 30s and you know and that's to be honest, a lot of times in their 20s they're not listening to you. So you have to establish that foundation somewhere and somehow. But I think there's critical times in a child's development. So, no, you don't, you just don't have five years, but it does lay down importance of that time you do have. It's not a countdown, but it does give you some type of mindfulness to say, hey, I really need to. Yeah, would I rather do this and take a little driving 100%. However, I'll never get that time back. I'll never get that experience in the things that we talk about one on one when we're together, when we're alone.

Speaker 1:

So pretty much it's setting that foundation early on so that when they do leave the house that it's set, you have to create it when they're older, because it's a lot harder than.

Speaker 2:

And this is the other thing, not just that, and sometimes I say it's the quality of it and I can always when I talked about modeling, they need to see me how I treat you and then they'll know how they need to treat another woman and how they need to cherish that person.

Speaker 2:

And they need to be vulnerable because you're not going to always be right, but it's good for my son to see that also and have to treat a woman.

Speaker 2:

And it's also like we read in, and even in this book, how your daughter, their first love in their life, is their father.

Speaker 2:

And if you model the right relationship with that daughter, a lot of times they're going to seek that in the next person that they're actually dating, falling in love with, because they're going to have certain expectations that their father gave them in life and how they were treated and how they saw their mother treated and how they treated their daughter, and in doing that, that's what they're going to, that's what they're going to be attracted to. That's what they're going to see is, hey, this is how a guy should treat a woman, this is how a guy should care and nurture, and whether it's coming from their father or seeing the example of their parents being together, and that's a critical time to do that in a child's life, because by the time they're 20 and out the house. Yeah, you've laid down a foundation, I think, and yeah, that doesn't mean you're stopped modeling and you stop having those conversations with them. But I think those conversations change, they become something different as your child gets older.

Speaker 1:

So it basically also said if a man doesn't get everything that they need, they try to find it in other things. So you mentioned pornography. They'll find it in power and success and money and cars and shiny things. They try to find it in so many other things if they're missing something. And there's this one line in there that said but the deadliest place a man ever takes his search, the place every man seems to wind up, no matter what trail he follows, is the woman.

Speaker 2:

Taking it to Eve, as he says in the book.

Speaker 1:

Which means we have a lot of power.

Speaker 2:

A lot.

Speaker 1:

In turning. I'm not saying that it's our duty to turn things around, but women have more power than we actually realize.

Speaker 2:

And he also says that this is why so many men secretly fear their wives.

Speaker 1:

I wrote that one down, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Because, if you know, if the one you marry, she sees you the way no one else does. She sees you when you're at your lowest, when you're at the highest, when you're you know she's the one that sleeps with you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's what I said.

Speaker 2:

She knows what you're made of, so she knows who you are behind the image that you portrayed. Everyone else.

Speaker 1:

Well, it says let me read it, because I wrote that one down, because that one was powerful. This is why so many men secretly fear their wives. She sees him as no one else does, sleeps with him, knows what he's made of. If he has given her the power to validate him as a man, then he has also given her the power to invalidate him too. That's the deadly catch.

Speaker 2:

Well, you're pursuing this woman. You know you're searching. You're like they said. You know every woman wants to be pursued, so you're pursuing them. And that's the adventure when you're in first relationship and then you've captured her and you got her. But you put a lot of effort into doing that and a lot of times you're very vulnerable and you put a lot of trust in it. But that person could easily break you.

Speaker 1:

I can snap you in half and I will have the power. You will be all mine. No, that you believe that to be true.

Speaker 2:

Yes, 100%. Because if you're not grounded in who you are, you're going to think that that person is the thing that grounds you. And if that person is not in your life, you see it all the time People go crazy. They have a whole show that I watch when it comes to snapped. So you know you have those people that as soon as that in their minds, that foundation, which is a human, which is flawed, disappoints them, they lose their mind. And if you don't already have that foundation, you don't already have dealt with that question you have about your soul and your heart and you're thinking someone else is going to do it for you, because then that's the natural pursuit to someone to want you and then that validates you. If that's your whole premise of your validation, that can easily be taken away, because we're flawed, we're sinful, we're going to make mistakes and we're going to hurt other people, and when we do that sometimes it flips, so it can build you up and it can tear you down just as easily. Yeah, it's very fragile.

Speaker 1:

I think the bottom line that what I get from and you know this is the only chapter I've read. I don't know the whole book but in talking with this chapter and talking about this chapter and reading it, the bottom line to me is, when you come together as one, you decide you want to live this life together. I feel like a lot of times, we all just get very complacent. Well, we did it, I'm going to just be complacent. You be complacent, I be complacent. That's where shit happens.

Speaker 1:

You and I subscribe to the same thing, where we're continually growing and learning, learning and growing, growing and learning. That's something that we both have in common. You know moments where we've gotten complacent. That's where we're like clashing. That's where we're not seeing eye to eye. I've had to be more vocal and speak up, that this is what I need, and you've heard and you've listened. I feel for those couples and those marriages where one person is trying to change things or grow and learn and the other one is just sitting and happy and okay with how things are. That's where there's like a difficult you know, come to Jesus moments like do you just settle for it and this is just the way? My life is forever, because I've committed to this person. How do you get your partner to kind of be on the same level as you? Because for me, complacency is that doesn't work. So I'm so glad that you're not like that, because it's okay to be content, and you and I have talked about that.

Speaker 1:

We're content and things are flowing, but it doesn't mean that we're just going to just leave it the way it is.

Speaker 1:

Because, when something comes up, it's like, okay, this is a growing opportunity, this is a growth opportunity, what can we do with this? But for people to be like, oh well, this is just who I am, this is how it's always been all these years. Why are you griping about it now? You know, because I'm griping about it now because I don't like it. Okay, because I heard a podcast Viroqua 24-7. I decided I ain't putting up with this shit no more. You know what I'm saying. So it's, I feel, for the people that aren't growing together. Do you think men, do you feel like men, have that capability? Or they just are willing to do it with the right person, or they they've checked out, or like what? What can we?

Speaker 2:

It's. It's a lot of those things, but I think one of the biggest things is definitely for the right person they will. A guy, if he really cares about you, will do pretty much whatever to gain your trust and gain your affection. When he doesn't care about you, he's not going to go through the fight for it. Now can you turn around and get like so complacent not content, but complacent that you forget to do those things? 100% doesn't mean that it's not something we're fighting for or certain worth trying to change, because I think once he realizes you're serious about it and you're not just because you know sometimes people will just say stuff and never have any action behind what they say. It's just a threat. And then the guy knows it's a threat and he knows it means nothing because in a week they're going to be the same that they were prior to that.

Speaker 2:

But when you show that you're serious about what you're saying and you're intentional and you're consistent and how you want things to be and you're not wishy-washy, if they care about you they'll change. At least be willing to change and work on it together. But when it's just kind of okay, I'm yelling at you today and the next week I'm fine with everything you've been doing. And then I yell at you again six months later or three months later. You kind of just be numb. You get become numb to it and ignore it, or you're dealing and getting something somewhere else and you don't care. I am just here for the children and I'll get my pleasures from something else.

Speaker 1:

That's sad, that's real sad.

Speaker 2:

But you know that's unfortunately. That's the society that we're in right now. We have access to a lot of things and that's not always good.

Speaker 1:

So what else, as we're wrapping up, what else did you want to share? How you guys need that outlet to be who you are, how women have all the power, all the power. Okay, we have some power and I know I do I joke about it but I feel like a woman does have a lot of control and power and that we can use it for shenanigans. You know there's a lot of us that know we can manipulate, that we can persuade, that we can be persuasive and we use it for, like, malice and vicious intent. You know there's a lot of us that know that we can do that and we use it for not good things. So just know, for us women, you know there's time sports like well, I'm not going to do it because he's not trying, so maybe we try to alter what we do and see if it changes. Like you never know.

Speaker 1:

I think sometimes we're like I don't stand still, like like the Wild Wild West, where it's like we're just standing there face to face seeing who's going to move first and instead of one person, it's all about pride and freaking ego when it comes down to it, and if one of us can just make that first move, then maybe the other person would be like, okay, it's softened a little bit. It's like, okay, we're in this together, like you've always told me. And we learn to say like we're a team, we're on the same side, we're on the same team and we're in this together. And when someone says that, when you're in the middle of you know, wanting to rip each other's heads off, and it's like you're right, we're on the same team, you're not my enemy.

Speaker 2:

So I like this quote that he put in the book. He said God gave us eyes so that we might see. He gave us ears that we might hear. He gave us wheels that we might choose, and he gave us hearts that we might live. The way we handle the heart is everything, and it's how we handle our own hearts, how we handle our wives' hearts, our daughters or sons. That's a lot, but a man is powerful and he can handle a lot, and I think we just need to know what we, who we are. Because he says you need to be, you need to show authentic masculinity, which doesn't mean, you know, banging your head against the wall, jumping out of planes, climbing mountains, and there's nothing wrong with doing any of those things.

Speaker 1:

Except banging your head against the wall. That's a little excessive.

Speaker 2:

Extreme right, but it doesn't mean you're always looking for that adventure. You know, like he says in the book, a woman doesn't always want. She wants adventures she can share with someone and I think that if we're being authentic selves and intentional, all those other things can happen.

Speaker 1:

So I'll end with this when a man truly loves a woman, she becomes his weakness. When a woman truly loves a man, he becomes her strength. This is called exchange of power. Thank you, phillip, welcome baby, aka Felipe. Bye.

Speaker 1:

So I wanted to share with you all that Virago is going to have an event. It is going to be November 11th this November 11th and it'll be all day. We will have yoga. We have an Enneagram coach. For those who don't know what an Enneagram is, google it. It's a lot of fun. You'll learn a lot about yourself and your inner workings. We'll have a lot of different activities to help with, like goal setting and just kind of digging deeper into who we are.

Speaker 1:

So the event is called Evolve with Virago 24-7 and it will be at a Lakeside Resort. It's gorgeous setting. It's going to be very soothing, very zen, a time to regroup. If you want to stay in the hotel where the event is occurring, there is discount code. So if you go to eventbritecom and then just put in the search Evolve with Virago 24-7, the event will pop up. You can get all the details there. And, yeah, this is just a time to bring what we discussed here on the podcast to life, where we can all come together and build a community of women that are growing and healing and are lawyers. So, yes, I look forward to seeing you all November 11th. Thank you so much for listening to Virago 24-7. If you haven't done so already, go ahead and hit that subscribe button and please give us five star ratings. Also, don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Virago 24 underscore seven, and on Facebook, at Virago 24 slash seven, and just connect with us and share your story. We'd love to hear from you.

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Lyanette Talley

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